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Transcript coming soon!

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:11

Erin

So imagine this. This is what I teach. Your life is like a sandwich. And your job is like a tomato. And so if you are only having a tomato for lunch every day, it can be the juiciest, ripest, most amazing tomato in the world. And you're like, oh my gosh, I'm so lucky to have this tomato. But if you're just eating a tomato every day for lunch, that's not good for you.

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00:00:23:11 - 00:00:40:03

Erin

It's not nutritious. You're going to get sick of it. And also, what if one day that tomato’s soggy, then your whole lunch sucks? So what you got to do is you got to work on your sandwich. You got to put in exercise, a little bit of lettuce. Oh, okay. Now we're talking about a caprese salad with some balsamic vinegar.

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00:00:40:10 - 00:01:05:03

Erin

Ooh, maybe that's knitting. You have to add more to your life. Seeing your friends, joining a volleyball club, walking your dog, and volunteering is massively helpful. Getting perspective. The less work becomes the center fold of your life. You have to decenter work from your life.

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00:01:05:05 - 00:01:43:27

Grace

Welcome to In the Mix, the only podcast produced and hosted by the School of Communication at �鶹��Ƶ. Join us as we create a safe space to explore topics and communication at the intersection of social justice, tech, innovation, and pop culture. Welcome back to Media in the Mix. I'm your host, Grace, and today we have an exciting guest, Erin McGoff. She is an award winning documentary filmmaker, director, editor and focuses on impactful storytelling. After graduating from our very own School of Communication at �鶹��Ƶ in 2017, she received a Pulitzer Center Fellowship for her debut feature documentary, This Little Land of Mines which was on Amazon and garnered festival accolades in international distribution.

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00:01:43:29 - 00:02:04:04

Grace

She's also directed other shorts like Southern Sustainability in 2018 and New York Is Silent in 2020, and has done commercial work with major brands, which we can talk about today as well. In 2021, she gained popularity on TikTok and Instagram for her career advice channel advice, with Erin amassing over 5 million followers. She's been featured in major publications.

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00:02:04:04 - 00:02:33:23

Grace

And what I just saw recently that you had your very first TV appearance about that as well. I know we shared that on our SOC page. Everyone is super excited to see it and recently launched a YouTube show called No One Knows What They're Doing, which I feel that I do definitely. Anyway, yes, I just want to say how excited I am to have you on, and I'd really love to just kind of dive, take you down a little memory lane, kind of with your time at SOC.

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00:02:33:25 - 00:02:48:07

Grace

So if you don't mind just starting with that kind of telling us a little bit about your time at SOC. If there were, like, any highlights or a class you loved or a project that stood out to you, kind of where you're at there, of course.

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00:02:48:10 - 00:03:17:18

Erin

Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be talking to another Eagle. Yeah. So I actually transferred into American. I went to Drexel University in Philadelphia. My freshman year didn't love it that I went to Scotland for a semester, and I studied wine, which is really fun. But I yeah, but I was there during the Scottish referendum when Scotland was trying to actually leave, the UK, and that was when I kind of made my first documentary and got into documentary, and I realized that �鶹��Ƶ was a great place for me to maybe transfer.

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00:03:17:21 - 00:03:37:15

Erin

I was from the DC area, and so I transferred back there and immediately it clicked. It just felt so right. I loved everybody I met, found everybody so interesting and fascinating. I loved living in DC. And yeah, I just I'm so happy that I ended up there.

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00:03:37:17 - 00:03:56:06

Grace

And can you tell us a little bit about this Pulitzer fellowship that you got? Is that through you?

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00:03:56:08 - 00:04:13:13

Erin

Yeah. So my senior year, I sign up for an alt break. I don’t know if this is still a thing, but it was over Christmas break. I think. And we went to Laos to study the impact of unexploded ordnance. Allowed sources. The most, heavily bombed country per capita in the history of the world. The US bombed labs during the Vietnam War, during the secret war. And I joined that program because I actually visited Laos in high school and found it to be the most beautiful place I'd ever been in my life, and I hadn't heard much about it. But when I was there, I didn't see any bombs. Everybody there was incredibly kind, so I had been very interested in this topic.

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00:04:13:15 - 00:04:29:25

Erin

So I went there, you know, we met with the ambassador and it was just this incredible program where I got to really learn a lot about Laos, like we met with monks and politicians, and it was just it was life changing. And I realized that I had so much information. I had all these connections to Lao people.

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00:04:29:25 - 00:04:46:22

Erin

And I was like, you know, I'm going to bring this story back to America. And it was Bill Gentile is one of my favorite professors in American. He's amazing. And, he he made it happen. I made a little short teaser, and I just said this is something that I want to cover. He was, like, Erin you’d be a

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00:04:46:22 - 00:05:10:08

Erin

great fit for a student fellowship. at the Pulitzer Center. And I can swear he actually recently just left the Pulitzer Center, was a great mentor, and they supported my project, and it was, fantastic. Yeah.

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00:05:10:11 - 00:05:24:26

Grace

That’s amazing. We’ve had the our last three guests have mentioned Bill in their like, their SOC career. And it’s just so awesome to hear those shout outs because he’s still doing that and he’s still doing that for our students. It's so cool to hear. Yeah, he really is. He really is. And I guess I'm going to jump to this question just because that kind of plays off of this. But do you have any advice for our students? In terms of like networking with your professors and kind of like getting to know your professors?

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00:05:24:26 - 00:05:42:19

Grace

Because we try with this podcast also to kind of like break that barrier a little bit. I know sometimes it can be intimidating or you're extremely introverted, so it's just not something you want to do, beyond class, but can you just kind of shed light on just the positives to that?

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00:05:42:22 - 00:06:03:24

Erin

Oh my goodness. I went to office hours as much as I possibly could. I remember I would go to Chris Palmer's office hours all the time. I think it was like once a week, maybe every other week I go and we would just talk about our careers, and he would just give me like general life advice. And I don't know why anybody wouldn't go to those. It's like one on one mentoring with people who have been where you have been and they have connections, industry connections in DC.

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00:06:03:24 - 00:06:20:17

Erin

And it's just like, that's a great way to get internships and get opportunities. I mean, I think the network that American provided was actually more valuable in a lot of ways. And like the things I actually learned in class, I mean, I learned great things in class, but getting access to the professors was actually what made the largest impact in my life.

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00:06:20:19 - 00:06:49:03

Grace

That's awesome. And you're right in DC too. So yeah, that's really valuable as well. And then just a little side note on kind of this, project that you did when you went to Laos. So what advice do you have? Because we get this question a lot when you're stepping into another culture, maybe, or a group of people that you might not be around every day or might not know even let's say you don't know much about it, but you want to do this project. Is there kind of any advice on how you navigated that?

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00:06:49:05 - 00:07:04:06

Erin

Oh, absolutely. Hire them and get out of their way. That's exactly what I did. And I can't I don't see another way of doing that. I hired a Lao production company. I worked with a Lao producer. Every I they I had them do most of it.

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00:07:04:06 - 00:07:18:00

Erin

I raised the money here, and then I sent it to them. I didn't even pay for me to go over there for development, cause I was like, what am I going to do? I don't, I mean, I speak a little Lao, but like, they're the people who are gifted and talented and they they know. But what I really brought to the project was an American perspective.

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00:07:18:00 - 00:07:37:11

Erin

Like, for example, my Lao producer, he didn't understand that Americans didn't know. So we actually had to collaborate and work together to make a product that Americans would actually be able to understand. So that's what was really beautiful about that project was it was a collaboration between me and Lao people to really make something that would translate and write, you know, and educate Americans properly.

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00:07:37:13 - 00:07:59:17

Grace

That's awesome. Good for you. That's actually a really good point, because sometimes it's like we would just even if we tried our hardest, we still wouldn't know kind of what to do or. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I love that. Any pointers on how to like pitch ideas? Like when you come up with a documentary idea and you're pitching or you're kind of like bringing this idea to light, do you have any advice there?

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00:07:59:20 - 00:08:22:07

Erin

Yeah. So the documentary landscape has dramatically changed in the past four years. And it's like very, very different. So like when I graduated from a �鶹��Ƶ, it was like, okay, you know, you pitched like a sales agent or you pitch a, production company that already works with Netflix a lot, and then they greenlight it, and then you go make sure you get a pre-sale nowadays.

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00:08:22:07 - 00:08:42:12

Erin

So the, the big financiers, and distributors, Netflix, HBO, Hulu, all of them are more internalized. So you really have to get into the companies to really get anything greenlit, and they like to work with people they've already worked with. So I would recommend anybody out there who's, like, really trying to get some. There are two different approaches you can take.

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00:08:42:12 - 00:09:02:10

Erin

You can get something pre-sale like pre funded, which is incredibly difficult if you're early in your career because they're just not going to gamble on you like the amount of people who've tried to shove me off my own projects because they're like, it's just semantics. And I'm like, okay then. Yeah. Anyway, and try to put somebody like a big notable older male director on.

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00:09:02:12 - 00:09:22:16

Erin

It happens a lot, it happens a lot. So getting a presale is really difficult if you're early on in your career. The other way to do it is to like, raise money, grants are usually waste of time, you can try grants. They are really slow and usually not that much money. Fundraise, you know, on Indiegogo or something like that.

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00:09:22:23 - 00:09:39:09

Erin

And then you can kind of fund to make a sizzle, and that's how you can kind of ship it out. But nowadays, like the most the most of the film that you can make yourself the better off you are. I would avoid, like if you have the choice between two projects, one that you can just kind of go make and one where you like really need funding to do it.

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00:09:39:12 - 00:09:56:25

Erin

I would pick the one that you can just go make on your own, like Bing Lou made Minding the Gap, which like crushed Sundance a few years before the pandemic. And he just made that on his own and with his own camera. And it just, like, boosted his career. And you see that over and over again with Sundance.

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00:09:56:28 - 00:10:25:05

Erin

So I recommend, like this Little Land of Mines. I ran like three crowdfunding campaigns. I applied to hundreds of grants. I stayed up until 4 a.m. all the time. I didn't get any of them like I got a few, but like, you know, it's really, really hard. Yeah. And so you just got to figure out, like, what films recently got made and how did they get made and who made them, and then message those people and be like, hey, I have a concept drive and unique access is a big thing.

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00:10:25:10 - 00:10:49:13

Erin

A notable figure attached to those are things that people are really looking for nowadays. And if it's having to do the sports or, music niches or any type of celebrity money, but if it's having to do with anything like in the environment or politics, they don't really want.. It's very sorry guys if that’s disheartening, that’s just very like

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00:10:49:13 - 00:11:09:13

Erin

No, this is a part of it because I feel like we do. The reason why I started this podcast is because things like that that I really appreciate when, you kind of get a really transparent look, just for anything, really anything but more so, like what to expect when you go into the process.

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00:11:09:13 - 00:11:29:15

Grace

I think that sometimes can help, like ease a lot of anxiety of like, I have this idea we're going to go forth, but what to expect, you know, and I feel like that like there are some blows and it like lessens the blow a little bit, you know?

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00:11:29:18 - 00:11:45:25

Erin

Yeah. And you’re totally right. Like, just don’t look abandoned projects just kind of keep them in your back pocket and maybe like something big will happen on film, you know, when you can. Documentaries are just a labor of love. And there was a golden age, I think, for a while there, and the Golden Globes unfortunately, kind of dulled a little bit. Yeah. But there's still a lot of money in the film industry and a lot of money to be made, but it's just more about who, you know now more than ever.

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00:11:45:28 - 00:12:06:06

Erin

So the more people, you can know, don't ever burn bridges. Just yeah, just get to know a lot of people. That's really like, it's really going to help you.

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00:12:06:08 - 00:12:26:00

Grace

Yeah. And kind of like, move with the times, I guess. I really appreciated that you said that recently, too, about AI. I’m just like how I think we were so scared that was just gonna, like, take over. But now it really is like, do you know AI? Like, can you use AI? Because that's probably likely going to be the next step of like, okay, who can use it? Who can run it, who can kind of you know.

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00:12:26:05 - 00:12:43:11

Erin

It’s like any new technology, I think it’s overblown short term, but under blown long term. I think now people are kind of realizing that all these AI systems aren’t as great as people thought they were going to be. But they will be like in ten years. They're going to be incredible. But right now it's like it's sloppy. It's like when the first MacBook came out and now we look at it, we're like, oh, that thing was ugly. We're just in the beginning stages of it. And it's scary, but it's the way it is.

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00:12:43:13 - 00:13:05:00

Grace

It is, I know, but it's like the more, you know, I guess the better at this point. So it's like more you can learn, I don't know. We'll see, we’ll see. Yeah. Exactly. We'll see how that goes. Reading your bio, there's so much that you're doing in all aspects of media. So can you kind of just give us like a look into kind of a day in your life or just like a week into your life and how you sort of touch on all these aspects of media?

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00:13:05:00 - 00:13:27:04

Erin

Yeah. So I'm self-employed. I run my own, production company called Gray Films. I'm in New York City, and then I have Advice with Erin, which is, my like social media side. So I kind of split up my professional career into two categories. One side is documentary filmmaking, and the other side is running this like media platform where I give career life and not financial advice, but education.

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00:13:27:07 - 00:13:41:17

Erin

And I help people just learn about kind of like the hidden curriculum of adulthood, things that we don't learn in school. And maybe wealthier kids learn from their parents, but the rest of the kids just kind of have to fend for themselves. You know, how to make a resumé, how mortgages and credit cards work, things like that.

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00:13:41:19 - 00:14:00:20

Erin

And that's something that I'm really passionate about doing. In addition to documentary filmmaking. But to be quite frank, documentary filmmaking isn't a sustainable career. It's not. You can't do it full time unless you have financial support from outside, right? A spouse, you know, who's willing to do that, or you're willing to live on the cheap, or you have parents.

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00:14:00:22 - 00:14:18:17

Erin

And the documentary film industry in general has been going through a really, really rough period the past few years. So, I have projects in development, everybody's projects in development. I have some projects in production. But mainly I've been focusing on Advice with Erin, because what I've realized is that, I want to make a positive impact in the world.

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00:14:18:19 - 00:14:40:08

Erin

I want to, like, empower people with information, to unite humanity. That's why I got into documentary. I wanted to make positive documentaries that told truth and and revealed stories, but at the end of the day, made the world a better place. And I realized that if that's my overall mission, a great way to do that, and actually a more efficient and effective way to do that is through social media.

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00:14:40:11 - 00:14:59:18

Erin

And so from 2020 to 2022, I actually worked at National Geographic. They hired me to creatively direct and launch their TikTok account. And that was a really great way for me to meld my two passions together. But yeah, I mean, you know, working in media these days is definitely interesting.

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00:14:59:21 - 00:15:16:07

Grace

It’s up and down. It’s just like up and down. You never really know what to expect. Follow up question to that, kind of based on how the world came to be after the pandemic. And then it was just kind of like we're slowly trying to still, I feel like ease back into it. And they're saying, like Covid has taken another turn now, so it's just a lot going on.

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00:15:16:07 - 00:15:33:25

Grace

How did you navigate that kind of I guess it was only really just two ish years after graduation. So it's like it was that also part of the reason why you kind of launched Advice with Erin? Because you were like, you know what, this is a tool I can do at home. I can do from anywhere. Can you just kind of shed light on that as well?

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00:15:33:27 - 00:15:54:17

Erin

Absolutely. So I graduated and I couldn't get a full time job because I was headed off to Laos in a few months to film. So I started to freelance in the DC and Baltimore area just to make ends meet. I moved back home with my parents and I just was hustling. I mean, I was working on reality TV, commercial. I was spending so much time in my car, 14 hour days.

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00:15:54:17 - 00:16:09:28

Erin

It was it was a grind. And I liked it, you know, it was it was really tough. But I was just trying to make, you know, maybe like 200 bucks a day. Like it just was a grind. Learning a lot about the film industry. And, I went and made my documentary. I'm very, very proud of what I accomplished.

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00:16:09:28 - 00:16:26:26

Erin

It premiered it in 2019, bootstrapped every last penny to pay for it. And, yeah, we premiered it. It was it was fantastic. You know, it played at Mill Valley won all these awards. And then I moved to New York City off of the heels of that. And I was like, had all these meetings set up, these great production companies.

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00:16:26:26 - 00:16:45:12

Erin

I had my freelance editing career. I was, you know, charging great hourly rates. I was working on projects I liked. Life was so good. And then three months later, the pandemic crushed New York. And it I had a few projects that were lingering, but then pretty much everything dried up. And fortunately I had a little bit of an emergency fund.

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00:16:45:14 - 00:17:03:27

Erin

That I could use. And I was living with my husband, but it really, really dried up there for everybody. Yeah. And, so I downloaded TikTok just like every other millennial. And I got scared and deleted it. And then I re downloaded it, and I thought it was cool how people were using the platform to tell stories.

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00:17:03:27 - 00:17:21:29

Erin

And, I thought was really cool how videos could reach people through this very powerful algorithm. And I thought it might be a cool way to help people educate them about the film industry, because I find that the film industry is an incredibly unequal place. It's just not a meritocracy at all. So it's like, what if I could, you know, help people like, learn how to actually get on set?

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00:17:21:29 - 00:17:39:14

Erin

And so I make these little videos about like, what's a producer versus a director? So that some kid who maybe couldn't afford to go to film school could just, like, maybe learn something for my videos. Anyway, so I was given career advice for the film industry, and it was just going viral. People were loving my advice and they were asking me to make it more general.

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00:17:39:21 - 00:17:59:20

Erin

And getting career advice is always something that I've been passionate about. In college, I would sit in the Dav and I would help people with their resumes. That was like a hobby of mine. So, it's always been a passion. I started making the videos. They just started going really viral. I was very up against taking it seriously because I was like, I'm a documentary filmmaker.

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00:17:59:23 - 00:18:25:26

Erin

I'm not an influencer. I don't want to be an influencer. Then I realized you can just be both. I can have both aspects of my career. And I left my job at Nat Geo in 2022, and now I've been doing Advice with Erin more full time.

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00:18:25:28 - 00:18:44:01

Grace

Wow, I love that. That’s awesome. And I guess just a quick, follow up question to that should people fear freelance and being self-employed, can you I know we’ve we’ve actually talked about that a lot. And people are like, it's like the inconsistency in the making money. And you know what? Like how what does that look like. And I know it clearly is going so well for you. So just any, any advice on kind of not just don't fear it, try it. And it could be the lifestyle that's right for you.

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00:18:44:04 - 00:19:04:20

Erin

Yeah. So I think there's two things. The first thing is that I don't think freelancing or being a business owner is for everyone, I really don't. I think that if you're not motivated or driven by like money, or independence and being able to control your time. So for me, time is a big thing. I just, I did the corporate thing and I was like, I hate someone telling me to come in and having to ask permission to go on vacation.

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00:19:04:20 - 00:19:24:17

Erin

I was like, this is gross. So that's like, why I really love freelancing. And I've been doing it for seven years. And then the other side of it is that people say, you know why I want a job? Because it's it's stable. And I was like that because I'm like, being a freelancer. Being self-employed is actually more stable, in my opinion, than being employed by somebody else, because no one can lay me off.

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00:19:24:17 - 00:19:40:01

Erin

Nobody can fire me. I, I if I want more money, I go out and make more money. It's actually very, very stable. What you need to do is be extremely good with money. You need you need to be on top of your shit when it comes to money. You have to have a good emergency fund, and that isn't going to happen overnight.

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00:19:40:01 - 00:19:58:07

Erin

You kind of need to ease into your freelancing career as you work your day job. Don't quit your day job. And then once you can beef up that emergency fund in case of a global pandemic, and you have your retirement fund, and if you're over 26, have your health care fund figured out, it can be the most liberating thing in the world I've made.

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00:19:58:08 - 00:20:18:22

Erin

I made six figures, and I was 25, and I was taking off basically the entire month of July, you know? Yeah, it can be really liberating. So if anybody's listening to this and you're thinking about freelancing, I would say like, just try it on the side. And if you start getting clients and you start getting to a point where you can't balance both jobs anymore and you have that emergency fund take the leap, it might be the best thing you've ever done.

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00:20:18:25 - 00:20:33:11

Grace

Yeah, I love that. Such good points there too, that we don't really think about. I it's like, you know what? It really is, the way you look at things. So I think that's another good point for people. Yeah. It's all about perspective. And, you know, it's all relative to like what makes you happy. But I do agree with a lot of that.

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00:20:33:11 - 00:20:52:24

Grace

And then would you say that you had a lot of repeat clients, like was it once you like networked with somebody that that work was kind of like, oh, we have Erin. Let's reach out to Erin.

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00:20:52:26 - 00:21:10:17

Erin

Oh yeah. That’s for the being great to work with tool comes in. People hire people they like. So, I’m a big perma-lancer. People. This is something that I teach. I have a freelancing, webinar that I do, but, where you want to get it is to a point where you're relapsing with companies where you're on, like, three month contracts, or maybe you're on, like, you know, a retainer model. And so people think, like, when you're freelancing, you're constantly clawing for new clients.

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00:21:10:20 - 00:21:25:12

Erin

That's maybe true if you're a bad freelancer, if you're a great freelancer, the companies are going to be begging you to be full time. The amount of companies that tried to get me to sign up to be a W2 worker for them, and I was like, no, stay away. I'm not coming to your all hands meetings, okay?

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00:21:25:12 - 00:21:45:15

Erin

Yeah. Separation church and state. Oh yeah. You need to yeah. Eventually you want to get to the point where you have, like, 3 or 4 clients who are paying big bucks to have you on their retainer. And that is like when you are coasting.

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00:21:45:17 - 00:22:00:21

Grace

Okay. That’s good to know. I really love that. You just said, it’s kind of like how you are to work with it. Do you have any advice for students on kind of like what skills they can be working on right now? Because that all kind of plays into right after graduation. It starts. It could also start. I know a lot of students that we work with that are freelancing right now, which is like so awesome. Like, oh, that I would have been like, no, okay.

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00:22:00:24 - 00:22:18:01

Grace

But yeah. Just any advice on like what skills they could be working on right now, even though maybe they're not in the workplace yet or they're kind of like not out there doing their thing yet.

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00:22:18:03 - 00:22:33:16

Erin

These are great questions. I can so tell that you're an SOC student because they’re so great. So something that I try to teach, but it’s kind of hard on the internet. I'm, I’m, I mainly do it like one on one is to have a freelancer mindset. Even if you're trying to get a full time, like corporate job, a lot of the times people go into job interviews and they think, okay, I'm going to try to make my case to this company. And fingers crossed they're going to hire me.

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00:22:33:24 - 00:22:55:03

Erin

No. When you're a freelancer and you interview with the company, which is why, like, I've done hundreds of interviews, when you're a freelancer, you're constantly interviewing, you know, you are a package deal. So, like, I am a professional video editor, I specialize in these things. And I'm seeing if this client would be a good fit for me and if I'd be a good fit for them.

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00:22:55:03 - 00:23:15:24

Erin

It's a mutual decision. And I am like, I'm like a little company. I'm like a little package deal. Like they get my services and like, that's the mindset that a freelancer has. And I think that everybody should go into their career thinking about what, like what product are they like, what package are they? What is the company getting from you?

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00:23:16:01 - 00:23:36:01

Erin

Like for example, with me as a freelancer, I say, yeah, I'm going to edit your video, I'm going to deliver them on time and I'm going to work with you until they are like, exactly what you want. And also I am going to be a pleasure to work with. When we get on meetings, I'm going to be present with you and I'm going to ask who your weekend was, and I'm going to have a joke and I'm going to, you know, not be in my pajamas.

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00:23:36:01 - 00:23:53:07

Erin

You're going to like, working with me. And I think that's something that people have to, kind of like, shift your mindset. You know, when you're graduating college, you go in and you think, what do I have to offer? You have a lot to offer. When you first graduate, you have your youth, you have your time, you have your energy.

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00:23:53:09 - 00:24:10:11

Erin

You are a sponge. You're like, that is so enticing to employers. So you just have to be confident and sell yourself. Again as like a imagine you’re specialist and they're hiring you for something.

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00:24:10:13 - 00:24:30:09

Grace

And it’s, I guess all about self branding to, you know, kind of like how you want people to see you, which is so important.. So safe to say you're working on a lot, all the time. Any pointers on kind of how to avoid, like, burnout the best way you can? Obviously it can happen, and it's really good to listen to your body and your brain and everything that's kind of going on, while you're in that, like, cruise control mode. But yeah, just any advice on that?

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00:24:30:09 - 00:24:50:10

Grace

Just kind of like, you know, I think we get caught up sometimes when we're working for ourselves of like, I can do this, I can keep going, I can hustle. But we do like to give advice on that work life balance because I think that's super important. So yeah. Any advice there?

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00:24:50:13 - 00:25:07:26

Erin

Yeah, I speak on burnout a lot, and I also suffer from burnout a lot because I’m a total workaholic. So the way that I think about burnout is that there's two different types. There's physical burnout, and then there's emotional burnout. And a lot of times people suffer from both. But the physical burnout, for example, is like a stay at home mom. Like she's really passionate about her children. She loves her children, she loves caring for them, but she's just, like, physically exhausted.

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00:25:07:29 - 00:25:23:13

Erin

And that can also be true if you're like a travel consultant or you work in the film industry like you love working on the set, but you are like physically depleted, like your back hurts, you got a headache, you're dehydrated. And then there is, emotional burnout where you're not physically depleted, but you're like, emotionally, just like, dead inside.

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00:25:23:15 - 00:25:45:26

Erin

And you just like, you hate waking up in the morning. You get the Sunday scaries. You just feel like, like paralyzed. And that is a bit more difficult to address because there's not an easy solutions. Like with physical burnout, you can you can sleep you they're like they're objective solutions. But with an emotional burnout, you have to figure out what's going to work for you.

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00:25:45:29 - 00:26:07:12

Erin

And they're many different things. Meditating in the morning, drinking more water, quitting your job, setting boundaries. I'm going to tell you one thing that I've consistently seen work over and over and over again. And nobody believes me unless they've done it or, unless they they do it and then they believe me anyway. Get a hobby. Get a hobby is.

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00:26:07:12 - 00:26:25:12

Erin

Get a hobby. So a lot of the times what I see with burnout is that people's jobs are their luves like. They wake up, log in to their computer. You see this a lot with remote work. They log into their computer. They have no morning routine, no work life separation. They log off, turn on Netflix, go to bed.

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00:26:25:16 - 00:26:43:23

Erin

There's no problem with working hard. You can work a ton and not get burnt out. There are people who work in the film industry who work 14 hour days consistently, and they don't get burnt out, and it's because they feel fulfilled in what they're doing. Okay, would you indulge me in my metaphor? I have a metaphor on burnout.

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00:26:43:26 - 00:27:03:13

Erin

So imagine this. This is what I teach. Your life is like a sandwich, okay? And your job is like a tomato. And so if you are only having a tomato for lunch every day, it can be the juiciest, ripest, most, like amazing tomato in the world. You're like, oh my gosh, I'm so lucky to have this tomato.

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00:27:03:19 - 00:27:20:14

Erin

But if you're just eating that tomato every day for lunch, you, that's not good for you. It's not nutritious. You're going to get sick of it. And also, what if one day that tomato soggy, then your whole lunch sucks? So what you have to do is you got to work on your sandwich. You got to put in exercise a little bit of lettuce.

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00:27:20:18 - 00:27:48:03

Erin

Oh, okay. Now we're talking about a caprese salad. Put some balsamic vinegar. Ooh, maybe that's knitting you to add more to your life. And people hate this advice because they're like, Erin, I'm so exhausted. I can't add any I'm exhausted when I come home from work. It sounds so counterintuitive, but the more that you add other elements in, seeing your friends, joining a volleyball club, walking your dog, volunteering is massive for you.

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00:27:48:06 - 00:28:19:02

Erin

For getting perspective. The less work becomes the centerfold in your life, you have to decenter work from your life. There's also an author named Arthur Brooks who writes on happiness, and he has some great articles on, like what makes you happy in your job? So I think it's also important to improve job satisfaction. But people focus, I think, a little too much on trying to make their job enjoyable, and not enough on trying to just adding more color to your life, more elements of that sandwich to just make a richer life outside of work.

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00:28:19:05 - 00:28:45:29

Grace

I love that, and I actually just thought about one of the videos you made recently, which was like my before we even scheduled this podcast. It was like my epiphany moment because you made a video on like kind of like lifestyle versus do you want a career life or do you want a lifestyle life? And it just hit me that like I was leaning towards one when I was so unhappy, and I think I'm I should be on the other side of it, which is kind of like building things around my lifestyle.

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00:28:46:19 - 00:29:01:25

Grace

Because I'm the same way. Like, I if I don't have a lot going on or if I'm not like, and I'm very like introverted too. So it's very interesting. But yeah, I have my days like it's like a mix, but yeah, I, I have recently gotten to stand up comedy, like, just like adding all these little things.

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00:29:01:25 - 00:29:17:12

Grace

Yeah. It was so like it really. And it, I mean, I did it for two years now I'm kind of like taking a little break, kind of seeing what's next. But I've always wanted to be a comedy writer. So I was like, you know what? They always require that any job I've seen, they always say you have to have stand up experience.

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00:29:17:15 - 00:29:35:08

Grace

So I felt like I was like checking off a box that was going to like, build another block on top of that block, you know, and it was such a game changer. Because I realized that a lot of it was like building my life around this career when it's the opposite for me. I'd rather like build everything around my lifestyle.

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00:29:35:10 - 00:29:52:21

Grace

And so thanks for that. Yeah. I was like, I watched that and I was like, oh my God, I'm doing one and I want the other.

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00:29:52:24 - 00:30:07:00

Erin

So you can still be incredibly ambitious and want a very specific job and be lifestyle oriented because, you know, for example, you said that you want to work in comedy. That’s great. You want to work at a job that's fun and that's based around comedy. I want I want to do that, too. That's why I use humor in my videos. That doesn’t. People get it confused because it's like, that doesn't mean that you, if you're like, self-centered, doesn't mean you're not ambitious in your in your job.

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00:30:07:06 - 00:30:22:22

Erin

You want to do. I’m lifestyle centered. But if I wasn't lifestyle centered, I'd be living in L.A. working on a, Universal set right now. I don't want to be doing that with my days. I want to be home with my dog on my couch. So I found a way to work in entertainment, to work in media. And still be home with my dog on the couch.

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00:30:22:25 - 00:30:39:03

Grace

Yeah, I love that. On the topic of burnout, comes the other side of that of like any just advice on time management because that's like a really big factor when you're managing your own time.

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00:30:39:06 - 00:30:52:13

Erin

Yeah, especially when you’re self-employed and you’ve got no one telling you what to do and you’re going to be your own bad boss. Yeah. I mean, like when, when you're freelancing, it's easy because you have clients telling you what to do. But when you're running your own business, like me, and you got to tell other people what to do, oh my gosh, my assistant, I'm like, do we have to work today? And she's like, Erin, you got to work. And I'm like, oh, okay.

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00:30:52:16 - 00:31:14:20

Erin

No. But I’m just kidding. Something that I two things that I really like and that I found after having to manage my own time for years and just not wanting to work, is one thing is, time blocking. So I go into my Mac, you know, MacBook, iCal or whatever it is, and I'll just block off, you know, everything that I'm doing, that day and I, I follow that.

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00:31:14:20 - 00:31:28:11

Erin

I set little alarms so that if I'm writing, you gotta stop writing at 11 or. And you gotta go do this. So I set a little rule of myself like that. I have to eat lunch every day. I can watch a Ted talk while I eat lunch, but I can't scroll social media. You know, I've always like little rules for myself.

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00:31:28:14 - 00:31:41:28

Erin

The other thing that I really like is this thing that I. This little thing that I made up called the 3 to 1 method. And basically every morning it lists out three work priorities. It's like three things that must get done. And if they don't get done, I'm going to be in trouble like they have to get done.

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00:31:42:00 - 00:32:05:27

Erin

I can have other things that are secondary to that, but if I'm done with these three things, I can move on. But these are the priorities. And then two, health priorities, which can be as little as, like drink a glass of water in the morning or as big as, like, go run four miles and then, one fun thing every day. I think people should prioritize laughing every day. I think it’s a crime that we all are so sad all the time.

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00:32:05:29 - 00:32:17:24

Grace

Yeah, yeah, that's that's a great way to put it. I feel like we're all really just sad all the time. That might be where my humor came from or just kind of like, well, I'm just gonna learn to laugh through this rather than cry.

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00:32:17:24 - 00:32:34:02

Erin

You gotta laugh. I think learning how to laugh at things is emotionally intelligent. It is. And it's like, don't take yourself too seriously. You know? I just feel like I have to ask, how is it being on TV? That was so exciting. Oh yeah, you're all like, freaking out in the office. We were like, oh my gosh, Erin went on Fox today.

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00:32:34:04 - 00:32:49:11

Grace

It is. And it’s like, don’t take yourself too seriously. You know? I just feel like I have to ask, how is it being on TV? That was so exciting. Oh yeah, you’re all like, freaking out in the office. We were like, oh my gosh, Erin went on Fox today. How is that different than kind of everything else you've been doing?

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00:32:49:13 - 00:33:06:24

Erin

Yeah, it was a surprise. So Fox emailed me. And for the record, CNN has not emailed me. NBC has not been. Naomi Fox is the first one to reach out to me. And at first I was like, like, do I really wanna go on Fox News? But then not, you know, because it's just like, yeah, no matter where you stand politically, objectively, Fox News is polarizing. And I know that because I worked in journalism. And, but then I thought, wait, this is the most watched network in the world, and they want to interview me about Gen-Z in the workplace.

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00:33:06:24 - 00:33:21:05

Erin

If I don't say yes, they're going to ask some other person and who knows who that's going to be. And this is my opportunity to speak to an audience. And yeah, I don't know, I was I was kind of flattered that they even somebody said my name in a meeting and they were they were open minded. And they want to they want to hear.

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00:33:21:05 - 00:33:37:25

Erin

The thing is, it was wild. I live in New York. They sent a car. I went over, I know, and it was it was honestly a very pleasant experience. And also, they couldn't have been kinder. It was stressful because they don't tell you what they're going to be asking you before you go on.

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00:33:38:08 - 00:33:57:19

Erin

Yeah, they they don’t prep you at all. They want you on the spot. And I didn't want to look like a fool. CNN called me. You know, everybody else can call me. But Fox called me first.

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00:33:57:21 - 00:34:15:12

Grace

Shout out to anybody listening. Congratulations on that. That’s very cool. It’s like cool to just know that you’re reaching people, you know? And that's that's awesome. I guess now we're actually, you know, coming to the end. Where do you I know you have the production company. You have advice with Erin. Is there anywhere you see it going? Anywhere you want it to go? It just the next steps are kind of where are you at? Yeah. In your in your own professional growth.

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00:34:15:14 - 00:34:32:11

Erin

It's a great question. I definitely have some very exciting projects, in the works that I can't quite announce yet. I hate when people say that, but I think it's actually true. Like, I feel like I have sympathy for that because it really is true sometimes. Like, you really can't say it's like such a diva, but like, I like, I'll get in trouble.

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00:34:32:11 - 00:34:55:26

Erin

Like I'll say things like, Erin, you weren’t allowed. And I'm like, oh, sorry, sorry. But I have a couple irons in the coal. What is it? Rods on the fire. Had some juggling. I'm, like, so bad at saying phrases like. But, you know, overall, I think my goal is to read Reese Witherspoon.

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00:34:55:26 - 00:35:17:02

Erin

It. I would like to eventually just start my own, like. I mean, I have my own production company, but like, fund my own projects, greenlight my own projects. Something that really bothers me about the film industry is how you just have to ask permission to do everything. And I feel like there's this club, and if you didn't get into this club before, like 2020, that you're just like not going to be able to be successful.

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00:35:17:05 - 00:35:42:16

Erin

And so I would like to be able to take like listen to pitches and say, okay, let's do this. And then, you know, I don't know what the distribution is going to look like, in ten years. But I'm really interested in financial literacy. And like scams and fraud. That's something that I'm really fascinated. Yeah. And so, you know, maybe that could be some big projects down the road. Definitely working on some stuff there.

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00:35:42:18 - 00:36:00:06

Grace

Yeah. That's awesome. And so important because they're really doing a good job these days with these scams. And so I've gotten a few of them and I'm like, what is going on? And you get so excited, which is why it's like such a crappy feeling, but that's awesome. That sounds great and good luck with everything.

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00:36:00:13 - 00:36:18:25

Grace

Is there one piece of advice you would have liked to know early on in your career that you kind of know now that you wish somebody told, like young Erin, this piece of advice. And then the other question is, what is kind of the biggest lesson you've learned in your career specifically? Or it could be life, too.

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00:36:19:01 - 00:36:37:00

Erin

The thing is, is that there's nothing really that I wish I knew because learning the things is what builds character and experiences, and I wouldn't be where I am without making mistakes and learning things along the way. So that's something that I wish I knew. I think something that's been that would been beneficial for younger Erin understand is that money is liberating.

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00:36:37:03 - 00:36:55:07

Erin

So like a lot of the times you're like, follow your passion, don't just do it for money. But the thing is, is that money, when you have money, you have more choice and you have more freedom. And that's like a fact. Like if you have like a financial backing and system, it gives you more leverage to quit that job when it's the point of it being toxic.

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00:36:55:13 - 00:37:24:04

Erin

And I think it's just really important for people to really prioritize having savings accounts and having that back up. You know, if I didn't have that during Covid, it just wouldn't have been great. So I think, like, you know, follow your passion for sure, but don't like, go broke, you know, just trying to be a full time documentary filmmaker, maybe get like, you know, a corporate job for a year or two and do gigs on the side. There’s nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with with making money. You’re not a sellout, you know.

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00:37:24:06 - 00:37:41:02

Grace

Yeah, for sure, for sure. That's such a good point. And it's like, if you want to Reese Witherspoon pay you need that. You know, it's like that's that's kind of how it goes. And yeah I think about that all the time. Like the money would open up the doors to do the passion projects.

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00:37:41:07 - 00:38:01:11

Grace

Yeah, absolutely. And then just any life or career lesson, that you want to share with everybody that you feel like might be helpful or just something, you know, pertaining to the entertainment industry, whatever it may be.

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00:38:01:14 - 00:38:27:03

Erin

The common issue that I hear a lot from people, and I don't blame them, I truly think it’s a direct result of Covid. It’s this feeling of like, I don't know what to do next. And I think there's a misconception that clarity creates movement. It's like once I have clarity, I'm going to go do this thing, but it's like almost never the case. Movement will create clarity, so you just have to get it off your phone and get off your laptop and get out of your room and go out and like, do literally anything like bartend.

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00:38:27:06 - 00:38:50:15

Erin

I drove Uber, I drove Uber in D.C. at �鶹��Ƶ. Yeah, I nannied in DC, I did, I organized closets, I dog sat so much and I met so many people. The girl a nannied for, she worked at discovery. Like that's how you meet people. It's out of context. Networking. That's how you really meet people, make connections, and you just want to.

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00:38:50:16 - 00:39:08:23

Erin

You want to collect connections, you want to collect contacts. And that's going to make you more powerful in the future because you go on LinkedIn and you look up this job, and if you never met anybody in your life, you're not going to know anybody who works there. But if you were a sorority, like I was in a sorority, now I have hundreds of connections and I can say, hey, we're in the same sorority, you know?

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00:39:08:26 - 00:39:29:16

Erin

Do you have an internal referral program? So it's just about collecting connections and associations, and, you know, it can be part of a volleyball team or part of a certain faith. It can be all these different things. So just finding ways to make a lot of connections with people in the way that you do that is by getting off a screen, because everybody's applying to jobs on these massive job boards and it's it's called a firehose effect.

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00:39:29:16 - 00:39:45:22

Erin

It's clogging them up. And it's a terrible way to try and get a job. The way to get a good job is through personal connections. And people hate to get that because it requires them not to just click easy apply. You actually get to have a conversation with someone. But it makes it a lot easier actually to, to get it.

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00:39:45:22 - 00:40:04:26

Erin

I haven't submitted a resume. Yeah, I mean, I'm a freelancer, but if you just know the person. Yeah, you can just skip over submitting a cover letter. So it's.

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00:40:04:26 - 00:40:27:23

Grace

that out of context networking that you said that’s so important because, I mean, I don’t know if you agree. They are saying this year is the worst year for job hunting, like keeping a job. There's been so many layoffs everywhere. It's it's really stressful. But you're right, I feel like people are more likely to remember the person they actually met and had a conversation with versus like getting lost in the pile, you know?

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00:40:27:26 - 00:40:47:23

Erin

But also this is really interesting effect that happens. So for example, if you’re a student at SOC and you email, the CEO of Nat Geo and you’re like, hey, I'm a student, can I pick your brain over a coffee chat? They’re gonna be like, no, like I get that every day, like 20 times a day. But. Oh, they need somebody to wash their goldendoodle in Bethesda. That's so funny. I signed up on Rover to watch dogs. Oh my gosh, you're CEO of National Geographic. You're now in their house watching their dog, looking at pictures of their kids. Like you're just in a different context.

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00:40:47:23 - 00:41:06:03

Erin

So they're more willing to talk to you like a podcast, for example, is a great way to get to know people. I mean, look at this. We've been talking for like an hour in context, networking. People tend to kind of close up a lot. But out of context, networking is a great way to like, get to know people in, more loose environments.

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00:41:06:06 - 00:41:21:15

Grace

I was going to say, and it's like it kind of takes away that pressure of like the professionalism and kind of like, how am I how am I looking right now? How am I sounding? How am I, you know, all that stuff? I love that. That's out of context. Networking. Okay. I'm I'm going to remember that. I love that.

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00:41:21:15 - 00:41:41:04

Grace

And then just last thing, is there anything you would like to talk about, announce or any, you know, special projects happening? Feel free to kind of give whatever shout out you'd like.

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00:41:41:07 - 00:41:59:00

Erin

Yeah. Well, people can follow me on Instagram, Advice with Erin and on TikTok at Erin McGoff and on YouTube. I post a lot of great, like, free stuff on YouTube. I have my YouTube show. No One Knows What They're Doing where I interview, just like interesting people about interesting things. And yeah, people can can follow me there. I do have some exciting projects. So those will all be announced on the platform. And if you ever want to reach out, you know, you can DM me. I get a lot of DMs.

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00:41:59:03 - 00:42:15:14

Erin

You can dm my personal account. It's probably more likely I'll respond there. Or just shoot me an email.

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00:42:15:16 - 00:42:33:06

Grace

Awesome. Perfect. And we will put all your handles in the episode description as well, so everyone can kind of find you and follow you, do what they need to do. Thank you so much, Erin. This was so fun. So fun to meet you. Finally. I feel like I know you because it's like when you follow someone for so long, you, like, feel like you know them. You know? This is really cool. But, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. I'm sure this episode is going to be a hit. I hope everyone was taking notes and listening.

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00:42:33:08 - 00:42:48:20

Grace

Well, thank you everyone for listening. Thank you, Erin, for coming on the podcast. Really appreciate it. And, if you would like to donate to �鶹��Ƶ School of Communication, go to giving.american.edu and I'll see you next time. That's a wrap.